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Article: Interview with Sifu Moy Saup Tung

This article can be found at moyyat.net

The following is a transcript from an interview between VT America and Aaron "Moy Saup Tung" Vyvial, who is a 3rd-generation "great grandson" of Yip Man, and special student (disciple) of Moy Tung / MY-3 inner circle member. Here Moy Sifu Vyvial discusses his understanding of some of the details of the Ving Tsun Kung Fu system.

VT: What is kung fu?

AV: Kung fu to me isn't a style and it isn't a system of martial art.
The deeper meaning, is that the results of what you do is Kung Fu. My
Kung Fu is Ving Tsun. Simple as that. Going to a class and doing
martial arts and playing the forms is all a method. Kung Fu is
intangible and cannot be taught.

VT: What drew you to the Moy Yat Ving Tsun System?

AV: I wanted to be the elite of the elite. I wanted a Kung Fu made up
of pure art without all the trappings that came from the other styles
around. Also, the main draw would be my Sifu, I am one of the youngest
of my Sifu's Inner Circle, and I know how lucky I am to have joined
when I did. I was able to learn from a true Master of Kung Fu. That is
a term given by us not him. Every time I go to another school's seminar
or watch a Kung Fu training tape, I just thank God that I found the
treasure of the martial arts world. I am also so grateful for the time
that I was able to spend with Sigung Moy Yat before he passed away,
going to dinner with him, listening to his stories about Yip Man first
hand and attending his seminars was like being a part of history. A
history that I can now pass to my students. I consider myself very
lucky. I have met many people who call themselves a Master or even
Grandmaster and I wouldn't trade my Kung Fu for anyone's. Moy Yat Kung
Fu and now Moy Tung Kung Fu is run like a family not a business.

VT: But what in particular about Ving Tsun?

AV: It is a system based on humans. Other styles previous were based on
animals, bugs, mythical creatures, Demons and Gods. In order to be
truly successful in those styles one had to take the true nature of
their style as their own. Ving Tsun was the first system based on the
human body and how it worked therefore I needed to take the true nature
of man... I was one step ahead of the game in my view. I respected the
simplicity inherent in the Ving Tsun System.

VT: What does the term Sifu mean to you?

AV: It has many meanings in my life. I believe that it literally means
"person of great skill". Any great teacher or master craftsman could
be given the title of Sifu. Later, the term and Chinese character was
modified to indicate a father figure or Master. Now, my understanding
is that my Sifu is the father of my Kung Fu, he is the one who planted
the seed of Siu Nim Tao and helped my ving tsun to grow. That is why I
believe that you only have one real Sifu for life. Grandmaster and
Master are just titles, usually people give themselves that title and
it means nothing, but when others give the title, it then has meaning.
All of my Kung Fu Uncles (Sibak and Sisuk) in the SSA Council could
legitimately call themselves a Master and many even Grandmaster.

VT: Is the relationship between a regular student and the Sifu
different than with a Special Student (Inner Circle)?

AV: Yes, as a Sifu I am an employee, a personal trainer of the regular
students. They pay me to give them Kung Fu. I am here to serve them.
Someone in my Inner Circle (MY-4) is going to have a much closer
relationship to me, an inner circle student wants the traditional Kung
Fu life and will spend a lot of time with their sifu. Not just
following their Sifu and asking about Kung Fu all day, that's not what
it's about. That's just being greedy, trying to steal Kung Fu from
their Sifu. Kung Fu Life is hanging out with your Sifu, playing video
games, going out to eat and some working out, whatever. Kung Fu guys
don't talk about Kung Fu.

VT: So a regular student buys the Kung Fu and an Inner Circle student
earns it?

AV: No, not exactly. We have a saying in the Moy Yat Family. Kung Fu
cannot be bought or taught. It can only be caught.

VT: What is the benefit of being in the Inner Circle then?

AV: Well, it's just a different degree of training. They are like my
family, and are treated as such. There are no secret techniques,
everyone gets the same system but the level of Kung Fu will be very
different also the students that I bring up to Sifu level will be from
the Inner Circle. My school is actually owned by my Inner Circle
(MY-4). So another benefit is that they learn how to run their own
martial art school and have a the great experience of owning a small
business. You can see that the MY-4 member will need to have a much
greater commitment to the Kung Fu because you are a member for life. An
old Ving Tsun saying says: "Your first obligation to your Sifu is to
have good Kung Fu, how can you do that? You have to take care of your
Sifu." Inner Circle members take care of their Sifu and they take care
of their home (Kwoon). Just like a real family, you can not be kicked
out of the Inner Circle. There was a time when a student of Moy Yat
stole valuable artwork from the family, well good or bad I still call
him Sisuk (Younger Kung Fu Uncle) he is still family.
VT: What does MY-4 stand for?

AV: The MY-4 is short for Moy Yat 4th generation from Yip Man. I am a
member of MY-3. Which is my Sifu's Inner Circle. Sigung had the SSA
which was short for Special Students Association, also he had the GSSA
for us his grand students.

VT: You were given the Kung Fu name of Moy Saup Tung, what does that
mean?

AV: Yip Man gave the name Moy Yat, meaning Moy 1, a great name of
honor. Moy Yat also gave Kung Fu names to his favorite students as a
sign of accomplishment and love. My Sifu got the name Moy Tung, meaning
Moy East. No one ever told me why, but my guess is that it could have one of two meanings: that he trained the Kung Fu like he was from Hong Kong or that he was one of the top East Coast guys. I don't mean to upset my Sibaks (Elder Kung fu Uncles) but these are just my guesses. My Sifu also chose a number for his branch school in Richmond, VA which was a lucky number 10. When I started my school, Sifu gave me his name plus the number Ten (Saup), Moy Saup Tung. Do I have people call me that? No, but it it is a sign of honor, to get his name and his number. It proves my lineage and shows the world that what I have to offer is real, it is like my resume.

VT: Now that you are a Sifu, how has your view of Ving Tsun changed?

AV: My view hasn't really changed at all, I knew what I was getting
into before I ever asked anyone to call me Sifu, I take it very
seriously. My role of Sifu is very important, everything I do in Kung
Fu has a purpose and everything I do as Sifu can either hurt or help a
student. I must say though, that anyone who truly wants to master Ving
Tsun needs to take on students. I am the one that is learning from my
students and my Kung Fu ability has grown immensely. I think my Kung Fu
brothers who have been hanging around the school for ten or more years
really need to leave and start their own school. It's greedy of them to
not share the knowledge that they have. We learn the Kung Fu in order
to use it to enhance our lives, the Kung Fu must be used for something,
to teach, art, whatever.

VT: How important is lineage in Kung Fu?

AV: It is very, very important. If you are not aware of where your Kung
Fu is coming from then your Kung Fu cannot be free to flow from the
grandmasters. The closer your Kung Fu is to the source, the purer your
Kung Fu will be. I am 12 generations from Ng Mui, 6 generations from
Dr. Leung Jan and 3 generations from Yip Man, that's my history. I can
tell you who all the grandmasters of my system are, it is very
important to me, it makes the Kung Fu real. That is why it upsets me
when I see guys who lie about their origins.

VT: Like Leung Ting?

AV: Come on, why did you have to bring him up. But yes, he and his
devotees are claiming him to be "The Greatest Student Yip Man ever
had". Well, you know what? He was never a student of Yip Man, his Sifu
is Leung Buk, a student of Grandmaster Yip man's first student Leung
Sheung. That means what? Well, he is 12 generations from Ng Mui, 6
generations from Dr. Leung Jan and 3 generations from Yip Man. The same
as me but I know who my Sifu is. Don't get me wrong, I would never
compare myself to Leung Ting, I'm sure he has great skill but what he
calls WingTsun is nothing like what I call Ving Tsun. They are two
different systems in my eyes.
VT: Okay then, why are they different systems?

AV: Well, WT is a heavily modified form of Ving Tsun and in my eyes it
just shows very little understanding of Ving Tsun principals and
theories. Many of the movements and energy I've seen in their system go
against what Yip Man passed down through the Kuen Kuit. It bothers me
that these so called "grandmasters" and I don't mean just Leung Ting, I
don't want this to be an attack on him but rather on all these guys who
think that their improvements to the system are "correct". It's a slap
in the face to Yip Man, they are saying that they know Ving Tsun better
than him and they don't respect what he taught them.

VT: Isn't Ving Tsun a constantly evolving system?

AV: Yes it is. But only on an individual level! As a Sifu, claiming to
teach ving Tsun, I have a responsibility to my students to teach the
pure art of Ving Tsun. The term we use is, Ving Tsun Chuen Jing Tung,
Which refers to the genuineness of the kung fu, meaning: "Ving Tsun
authentically passing down." This means passing on the true system of
Ving Tsun "unchanged by your own ideas." That is the only way to keep
our art alive as each generation passes on. It is my responsibility to
make sure my students know what I teach them is ving tsun and what
isn't.

VT: What would you teach them that's not Ving Tsun?

AV: Lots of things. Like my bad habits, using different energy in my
forms or hands that I don't want them using or even my own application
and understanding of Ving Tsun. I don't want to make carbon copies of
myself, my Kung Fu is different from my Sifu and his is different from
his Sifu. I want to pass on the correct details and let them figure out
how it applies to them as an individual that is how we developed a
strong Kung Fu. Like I was just saying, the evolution of Ving Tsun is
on an individual basis and comes from that understanding. The
principals don't change, and the basic kung fu doesn't change. What
else? Ok, I have glove sparring after class, we also use a punching BOB
and heavy bags to train certain aspects of the system. I make a point
to let my students know that you don't need any of that to develop your
Ving Tsun, I could take them away today and their training would not
suffer. They are there because I believe that they have helped my
training and that it might be fun for students to have the option to
work on them. Those extra things I have added are my method of
teaching. Methods can change a little but techniques and forms cannot.
I believe that the method is as important as the technique so I have to
be careful that my method doesn't alter the Ving Tsun.

VT: You don't teach your students your understanding of Ving Tsun?

AV: This isn't Aaron Vyvial Kung Fu, my students have to find their own
Ving Tsun. It's not my job to give my understanding, my role as a Ving
Tsun Sifu is to be a guide for the Ving Tsun System. I give the the
Kung Fu that was handed down to me by my Sifu Moy Tung, his Kung Fu was
handed down to him by Sigung Moy Yat and Sigung got his Kung Fu from
Si-Taigung Yip Man. That is how the system has been handed down
unchanged in it's purest form. I will talk and discuss theories and
principals with my students but they need to come up with their own
answers. Everything they need is contained in Siu Nim Tao. All Ving
Tsun is in Siu Nim Tao. It is my job to help them understand it, not to
give easy answers. If I correct every little movement and put Ving Tsun
in a nice little package and give it to my students then I'm teaching
Karate. They will develop my method and my kung fu as their own instead
of pure Ving Tsun. Kung Fu doesn't mean easy.
VT: So people add things to the system and call it Ving Tsun?

AV: Yes, people keep adding movements and techniques to the forms that
are just not needed, or they try to make it look fancier. Some change
up the order, adding some Biu Je to Chum Kiu... Or some just modify
what was originally taught, such as the flat Tan Sau, and curved Fook
Sau argument. There are guys who teach stepping in Siu Nim Tao. Some
people are even trying to take techniques away from the system.

VT: Take away?

AV: Yeah! They'll say the back stance is no good and that you have to
fight in a 50 x 50 stance, they'll say that this and that technique are
no good. Many are even getting rid of the pigeon-toe stance from Siu
Nim Tao and just holding a narrow traditional horse stance. It has been
said that at the end of Dr. Leung Jan's life he stated that he spent
his whole life making Ving Tsun simpler and more efficient and that
there was nothing else he could take away. It was perfect.

VT: What else have you seen added to the system?

AV: Other than techniques, for example, a sifu may happen to like tea,
so he will have tea during class everyday. A student will notice that
and when they become Sifu they get a tea set because that is what their
Sifu did. So just like that, a tradition can be handed down that has
nothing to do with Ving Tsun. Another is bowing, do you think that Yip
Man wanted people to bow to him? It's an ego thing. Another is the Kung
Fu Shrine. Many of the old school Kung Fu guys will have shrines set up
in their school because that is part of their religion, not because it
has anything to do with the Kung Fu. So once again it becomes confused
because it was presented as part of the system then handed down.
Religion, bowing, belts, none of this is part of Ving Tsun, those are
all personal choices.

VT: So you are saying that testing and a belt system are not Ving Tsun?

AV: Yes! That's part of it. Whether it's sashes or patches or belts or
12 different student levels.... That is not Ving Tsun. It never was and
it never truly will be. Ving Tsun is not meant to be defined, or
categorized. By saying that this is for this level and that is for that
level you will only succeed in making a very fragile Kung Fu. It won't
be real. That's like saying Siu Nim Tao is beginner level Kung Fu.
It's hard to explain.

VT: Fragile Kung Fu?

VT: The true nature of Ving Tsun is method-less it can not be taught
and it can not be categorized. You do not go through Ving Tsun and
define every motion, you do not give everything a label... A punch is
an attack right? No, a punch in an entry technique, its a defense, it's
a wedge, an attribute, it's whatever it needs to be at a certain time
following certain principals. Defining every motion puts Ving Tsun in a
nice little box, and By doing so one would be learning a dead art, a
husk of Ving Tsun. Ving Tsun is a living art, if you open yourself to
the true Kung Fu you will get it, simple as that. If I have students
who could tell me when they understood Siu Nim Tao or when they knew
how to really punch then I have failed. If I gave them a test on Siu
Nim Tao and passed them, then I am saying you have now got Siu Nim Tao.
Well, what does that tell them? It says, okay I've got it. Time to move
on to the next level. Right now, I don't know Siu Nim Tao, I learn
something new about it every week, especially now that I have my own
students. If I gave a test, I would fail myself.
VT: You touched on Siu Nim Tao being the most advanced Ving Tsun form,
what are the roles of the other forms in the system?

AV: My understanding is that all of Ving Tsun is contained in Siu Nim
Tao, that is the genius of the grandmasters. Chum Kui helps us to move
our Siu Nim Tao to an opponent. It gives us balance and coordination,
it helps us to come into certain positions by uniting upper body to
the stance. Chum Kiu in it self is not for fighting, Siu Nim Tao is for
fighting.

A student of mine who masters Biu Je automatically gets the title Moy
Sifu. Biu Je has many advanced techniques and theories but it is a form
of mistakes. Moy Yat called Biu Je, "Gow Gup Sau", which means
Emergency Hands, It tells you what to do when your Siu Nim Tao fails.
Even the "Flying Fingers" translation of Biu Je is wrong, the correct
meaning is "Standard Compass", the hands always go back to north: the
center line. Biu Je helps you to take back the centerline once you lost
it, it helps you recover from awkward angles and positions. When
someone crashes through your Bong Sau they force you into a Kwai Jian,
vertical elbow strike, and if someone collapses me at the elbow joint,
Biu Je shows me that a Biu Sau can get through the small gap and clear
it. These are just examples, I don't like to define movements of the
system like that. The point that most people don't get is that if they
force a Biu Je technique while sparring or during Chi Sau then they are
just playing sloppy and anyone at a similar level and a real knowledge
of Siu Nim Tao will easily control the line. For example, In order to
strike with a Biu Je elbow I must turn my centerline away from the
target. The best defense against the Biu Je elbow is the Lan Sau elbow
that you see in Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu.

VT: What about the wooden dummy and the weapons?

AV: They have specific role in the system but not as great as the
forms. The dummy is always a dummy, it makes your Kung Fu pretty, but
pretty Kung Fu doesn't mean good Kung Fu. You must have a good
understanding of Biu Je because over half the dummy's movements are
from Biu Je. There are no new techniques in the 108 Muk Yan Jong form.
Techniques come from the forms, the application comes from Chi Sau, the
dummy helps you sharpen your techniques making them smaller and more
precise. The Moy Fah Jong and the Gerk Jong have the same purpose as
the dummy, training movement and position. The Luk Dim Poon Kwan gives
you stronger punches while increasing your focus and awareness of the
center line and the Bot Jom Dao strengthens your wrists.

VT: What is the purpose of Chi Sau and the traditional two man drills
in Ving Tsun?

AV: The two person drills, Pak Sau, Lop Sau, and Don Chi Sau lead you
to Chi Sau training. The stages of Chi Sau are Luk Sau, Jip Sau-Jao
Sau, Tsui Ma and finally Chi Sau. Then there are even more advanced
stages of Chi Sau. About 70% of class time is spent on Chi Sau or 2 man
drills, they are the meat and potatoes of the system. Moy Yat Ving Tsun
is known for it's Chi Sau, it's what we do. Once there is contact, Chi
Sau takes over. We develop a very positive energy Chi Sau that is
always moving and never stagnant, this makes it hard for other styles
to even hold their stance or positions. We do not feint or trick our
partners to leave the line open for attack, instead we will let our
positions and Tsui Ma (Push Horse) open the line for us. If there is
always constant energy on the line, then our hands will automatically
rush through the opening
VT: What are some other difference in your Chi Sau and others?

AV: Chi Sau is a Ving Tsun training tool, no winner, no loser. Most
treat it like sparring or fighting. They think any hit is good and they
will do anything for the hit, you've seen those video clips online. We
call those guys Gunslingers, all they can show is how fast they are, it
looks like point sparring. True Chi Sau trains specific ideas in the
system, it's a discussion on how the hands interact within someone's
boundaries. Long arm techniques that leave the center and strike
around the outside gate are no good because you broke ving tsun
principals, elbow attacks only come from sloppy Chi Sau so is it better
to throw a Kwai Jian and not learn anything about proper distance or to
take a hit and learn something? Biu Je belongs to the dummy Siu Nim Tao
belongs to Chi Sau. A good Chi Sau technique keeps the same rhythm as
the rolling, not speeding up in order to hit, demonstrates center line
control and allows for Faan Sau (three strikes in a row), one hit shows
nothing but luck. A hit to the head, neck or side of body on the first
move is sloppy and cheap.

VT: Does ving tsun training make a good fighter?

AV: If you want to be a good fighter, go out and fight, then fight some
more and so on. That will make a good fighter. Ving Tsun gives the
practitioner a great advantage over most fighters but it doesn't lead
to fighting ability or having the Killer Spirit. You have to constantly
push yourself by training with realistic energy and you need to accept
as many of the challenges and matches against other styles that you can
in order to fully learn how to apply your Ving Tsun in realistic
settings. I don't care about training fighters, that's easy for me, I
can train someone to fight within 6 months but where do we go from
there? I am much more interested in passing on the traditional Chinese
art of Ving Tsun while using all the methods at my disposal to give
someone the ability defend themselves against someone twice their size.

VT: Here's a change in direction, what is the most important thing a
beginner should focus on?

AV: In my school, it would be the aspects of Siu Nim Tao. Relaxation,
lots and lots of punching, 1000's of punches a night, the Three Pillar
Techniques of Tan, Fook and Bong, and the most important of all, the
basic stance. All of that also comes from playing lots of Siu Nim Tao
but we'll supplement with certain drills.

VT: Would weight lifting be harmful?

AV: No, as long as they lift correctly and stretch sufficiently. They
should build up their tendon and joint strength and strengthen their
whole shoulder girdle.

VT: Are there any Ving Tsun specific exercises a student could do to
improve there Ving Tsun?

AV: No. They need to lift weights to fulfill whatever purpose they are
lifting for. Ving tsun takes care of itself, the training in the
system is complete. By mixing the two you will not achieve either. I
know people who will chain punch with weights or hold a Tan Sau with
books on it, I think this is wrong. They are training their energy to
go up, not forward. So they go "okay, I'll lie on my back and do my
chain punches with weights". So by compromising what they are doing
they neither performed a valuable lifting set nor did they do any good
punches.

VT: You have done lot's of cross training with different Ving Tsun
lineage's, BJJ, Vale Tudo, western boxing, is cross training important
for Ving Tsun?

AV: Well, I haven't really cross trained. I have gone and learned from
other Ving Tsun (WC, and WT) lineages and went and learned how to
wrestle and how to compete in Vale Tudo. Yes, this makes me a well
rounded martial artist but when it comes down to fighting for my life,
the Ving Tsun that Moy Tung gave me is what I will use, it is the only
thing that has proven itself over and over. Everything else is sport,
it's fun to learn how to grapple but I'm still going to stand on my
feet when I fight.

VT: What about cross training styles?

AV: A Ving Tsun student needs to focus on Ving Tsun, I waited until I
had a strong foundation in Ving Tsun before I ever went out and learned
another style. Our details work for us, other's details don't work for
us. My Sifu always said that "Ving Tsun teaches all martial arts
because Ving Tsun is all martial arts". Any martial art can take our
system and theories and apply it to their own easily (JKD, Kenpo,
whoever) but if we try and do the opposite, it doesn't work. Ving Tsun
is a jealous woman.

VT: What are your thoughts on the newer Ving Tsun styles to come out,
like Hung Fa Yi and Weng Chun that say that the Yim Ving Tsun origins
are not real?

AV: I don't really have anything to say about them. What I will say is
that Si-Taigung Yip Man sanctioned a work of art called the Kuen Kuit
Chops which was made by Sigung and approved by Yip Man. This is the
first and only work of it's kind! It has our true history and includes
our principals and ideas hidden in proverbs. None of these other guys
were saying anything when Yip Man, the true living vessel of Ving Tsun
was around to dispute it. Historically, we can only truly prove our
roots back to Dr. Leung Jan, everything else is legend. Let these guys
go out and make their claims, it has nothing to do with what I do.

VT: Anything else you would like to comment on?

AV: Yeah, I hope no one takes what I say here as gospel, this is only
my own understanding of the Ving Tsun system and my method. Any insight I may have into the system is due to my Sigung Moy Yat, and my Sifu, Moy Tung. Whatever mistakes I've introduced into my understanding are my own, but I have faith that the ving tsun will correct these. On that note, I would say to always test every theory and every principal, take the system and make it prove itself. Train like your life depends on it because it may save you some day.

Escrito por roge a las November 21, 2003 07:38 PM